S1:E2 Lee Sung Jin and the Octopus

On this episode of The Smith Society we sit down with the wildly creative and brilliant Lee Sung Jin.

Lee Sung Jin is currently the Creator/Writer/Showrunner/Executive Producer of BEEF, a Netflix series starring Steven Yeun and Ali Wong, produced by A24.

Lee's current television development includes: an A24 animated pilot, THE IMMORTAL JELLYFISH, with writer Joanna Calo, designed by artist Lauren Tsai, and NOWHERE, a half hour pilot with Seth Rogen, Evan Goldberg, Point Grey Pictures and Lionsgate Television, directed by Rhys Thomas (DocumentaryNow, Hawkeye).

His past credits include FX’s DAVE, Amazon’s UNDONE, Netflix’s TUCA & BERTIE, HBO’s SILICON VALLEY, and FX’s IT’S ALWAYS SUNNY IN PHILADELPHIA.

We recorded this interview in the fall of 2019.

Lee Sung Jin: instagram.com/beherelater

Duane Fernandez: Hey welcome. This is The Smith Society podcast, a podcast about storytellers on storytelling. I'm your host, Duane Fernandez, and I've got some ice stuck in my throat, so I have to go take care of that.

On today's episode, we're going to feature the incomparable Lee Sung Jin. He is currently the creator, writer, showrunner, executive producer of Beef, a Netflix series, starring Steven Yeun, Ali Wong, produced by A24. He has other television products and development with A24, FX, and Landscape. He has a lot of other products and development on the feature side as well. He is the hardest working person I know. His past credits include FX's DAVE, Amazon's Undone, Netflix's Tuca & Bertie, HBO's Silicon Valley, and FX's It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. I remember hearing about Lee Sung Jin years ago. Everyone I knew was raving about how nice he was, his impeccable style, and really just how talented he was as an individual. I've been following his career for over 10 years and when we were brainstorming people to feature on season one, I knew this was my opportunity to ask him all those questions I've been dying to ask. But I knew getting him on the podcast was going to be a challenge, but against his better judgment and some debating, he said he'd do it. And I'm so grateful he did. So let's jump in.

Oh, and one final note. This was recorded in fall of 2019. It was a much different time, although only a few years ago, but it's important to note because I think it helps frame some of the conversation. I hope you enjoy.

All right, so I'm going to ask you a few questions. I would like for you to pronounce your name, both ways.

Lee Sung Jin: Oh sure. Well my Korean name... Well, my given name is Lee Sung Jin. In Korean, you put the last name first. So, that's why I like director Bong Joon-ho, Bong is his last name. So yeah, I mean, my legal name is Sung-Jin Lee, but I like to present it now as a Lee Sung Jin, because that's the Korean way.

Duane Fernandez: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: And when did you decide that you wanted to focus on the Korean aspect? Or when you wanted it the traditional way?

Lee Sung Jin: Oh yeah. Well, I was born in Korea and then I moved around a lot. I moved to the states when I was nine months old. And then, I moved back to Korea from third through fifth grade. And, when I came from Korea to Minnesota in sixth grade, I had gone by Sung-Jin the whole time. And then, in sixth grade, Minnesota adolescents, the name got made fun of a lot. And, the teacher would just mispronounce my name every attendance, every day, like, "Sung-Jin," throwing in consonants that weren't even there. And so, I was so frustrated that one day I was just looking at my homework and in the name section, I was like, "You know what? Sunny." And I just wrote that for some reason. And it stuck. And, I went by sunny forever since then, since sixth grade.

And then, I had no intention of ever changing it, because everyone knows me as Sunny. I seem like a Sunny, I guess. But about a year and a half ago or maybe two years ago I used to live in Santa Monica and there's this coffee shop, Dogtown Coffee, that's awesome. Shout-out Dogtown. And, they had called my order and they read the name on my credit card, and these two grown white women laughed at my name being called, because it's very foreign sounding. And, I felt shame and I grabbed my stuff and walked out really fast. And, I didn't like how that felt. And, I thought, "Oh, I should try to change the stigma associated with Eastern sounding names."

And so, when I, when I think about director Bong Joon-ho or [inaudible], when I hear those names, they sound badass to me because they make really amazing content. And so, I was like, "Oh, if there's more Korean sounding names that are associated with dope stuff, then it'll help change the stigma around that." And so, I think the first time I started going by it professionally was on Tuca & Bertie. And that was the first time in credits that it appeared that way and I really liked how that looked and felt, and so I stuck with it.

Duane Fernandez: Dude, I love that so much.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. And you're absolutely right, the more people hear that, the more people understand that there's different cultures, and there's different sounds, and they're just normal, and they're actually awesome.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: And the people who are making this content, they're extraordinary people.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: And you should know the names, and you should know these sounds.

Lee Sung Jin: Exactly. I mean, so when I was growing up, I just felt so much... I moved a lot in the Midwest and I felt a lot of shame about my Korean-ness. And, I think you do so much to try and distance yourself from it as a child and be as white as possible. And, I feel like, now things are changing in a great way, hopefully. And, for other Korean American kids out there, it's just cool to like have more stuff that looks and feels familiar, out in the open. And if more people could be doing stuff like that, then there's no way culture can't acknowledge that, that's cool.

Duane Fernandez: Absolutely. And then, they hear a kid living in Omaha, hears about this cool movie, goes to see it, here's this name. And, it just becomes part of their vernacular, and part of their reality that these are names, and they're normal, and they're like, "Hank stop saying the word extraordinary because he's such a great director."

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. He's the best.

Duane Fernandez: I mean, it's just unbelievable. Well, that's cool. That's neat. When you were growing up, you said, you moved from Seoul to Minneapolis?

Lee Sung Jin: First, I moved to Urbana, Champaign because my dad was going to grad school there. And then, we moved to Lafayette, Louisiana. And then, downtown Minneapolis. And then, Plymouth, which is a suburb of Minneapolis. And then, Korea. Let me try to remember, and then back to Wayzata, Minnesota. And then, San Antonio. And then, I went to college in Philly. And then, my parents moved to Ames, Iowa. And then, they moved to Naperville, Illinois. And I would go to summer there, during my college years. And then, I moved to New York after college. And then, LA.

Duane Fernandez: Wow.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: Of all those places, is there one place in mind that you have fond memories?

Lee Sung Jin: No. There's pros and cons to everywhere, I think. I mean, yeah, I think I have 50/50 pros and cons of each place.

I definitely have probably a fondness for Minnesota, because that was my junior high years and you form a lot of your opinions and taste during that time. But, yeah, I feel like, in hindsight I really like that I moved around a lot, because it just makes you aware of many different people and forces you to adapt and be open. But, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't recommend it as a parent, I don't think in the present kids like doing that too much, but it was cool, looking back.

Duane Fernandez: There's one thing that I'm fascinated by Minneapolis, because early 2000s there was this weird hip hop scene that came out of there, and atmosphere and ELP. And I'm like, "What is happening in Minneapolis where there's this incredible sound of white rappers and white producers that were doing very emotional hip hop." Like Atmospheres - God loves Ugly is this really emotional journey. And, his girl broke his heart, so he wrote her album about it. And I'm like, "What's happening up there?"

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. No, Minneapolis has an incredible art scene. I mean, I wasn't too privy to it because I was pretty young, but I would always want to go to, I think, it's 1st Ave, was a venue there. And that whole area, you as a junior high school kid heard about how cool it was and artistic it was. But, yeah, all of my friends actually in junior high in Minneapolis, I think, they were the most artsy friends I've ever had. It's a weirdly very creative place. Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: I think it's because how cold it gets, you're in your house and you're like, "How to make stuff?"

Lee Sung Jin: Very cold. Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: The coldest I've ever been in my life was up there. I was in college and I was in Madison, Wisconsin. And it was negative 25, and I'm like, "Why do people live here?"

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah, I remember one school morning, the windshield was negative 70 and it broke a record. And, I think we still had to go to school. I don't even know what that number means now. Even positive 70 now is cold to me. Negative 70, what? But yeah, it got very cold. And, yeah, I think maybe that might be part of the reason. I mean, hardship does spring up good art.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. When you're traveling around the middle of the country, what did you want to be when you were growing up? Did you have one thing? Did you have many things that evolved? But, what was going through your mind at that time?

Lee Sung Jin: I'm not sure. My parents were pretty traditional and I didn't really think about... I feel like my mindset growing up, wasn't so much like, "What do I want to be?" Or dreaming of things. It was more like, "What am I supposed to do? And, how high of an SAT score am I supposed to get?" And, it was very rigid. And I felt like there were rules to life and I had to do this to get to that. And so, I wasn't dreaming as much as I was like, "Oh, there's a plan set out for me, and I'm just supposed to do these steps, and then everything will work out." Which, it did work out, but it definitely didn't work out the way anyone had planned. But yeah, I studied a lot and did really well on my SATs and-

Duane Fernandez: What was your number?

Lee Sung Jin:... I think I got 1560. Yeah. My sister actually got a 1580.

Duane Fernandez: Wow.

Lee Sung Jin: And so, yeah. And, I went to University of Pennsylvania and I thought I was supposed to be an investment banker and I majored in economics. I did really badly in it. Can't tell you anything about economics now. But yeah, it was a very different plan. But, looking back, I would say that I always had a creative side and that's what I probably was drawn to just as a human. I remember I did this thing, I think it was in sixth grade, called Odyssey of the Mind. I don't know if that's a state national thing, but it was this cool, extracurricular group and you were given prompts, and then you had to create anything from this prompt, it could be a sketch, or a play, or a musical. And then, judges judged how creative it was. And then, there was a national tournament.

And, I remember I loved that so much, and I always did really well in writing courses and anything creative. I was very musical growing up, I played violin forever, and guitar, and piano, and stuff. And so, definitely, it was there, it was just supposed to be an extracurricular to put on your resume so that you got into a good school and not a profession. Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: Do you still play stuff?

Lee Sung Jin: I do. I actually thought music was going to be my first thing, out of college, I was in a band. And, my first internship was at this independent music label off of Sony called Barsuk Records that Jack Ponti, who is the guitarist for Bon Jovi and he wrote a bunch of songs. I reached out to him on this internet forum and he gave me an internship.

Duane Fernandez: I love it.

Lee Sung Jin: And, yeah, I really thought music was going to be my thing, because it's probably my first love. But yeah, I thought that was going to be the route, but it didn't work out. I mean, so I still play for fun, but I don't think I could do it as a job. Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: It's a tough gig.

Lee Sung Jin: It is.

Duane Fernandez: So, you travel around, you pursue this major in economics at Penn. And, here you are and you're a writer. So, take me through the journey of how you go from being at Penn as a economics major to being a creative writer.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah, it was mostly just being bored. I graduated and then I didn't really know what I was doing and I moved to New York with no real plan. I actually remember I packed my Honda CRV with all my stuff. It was wintertime, because I had stayed in Philly after I graduated. I think I was helping out with a church or something. And, I packed all my stuff and I was planning to move to New York, and I stayed over at a friend's place. And in the morning, when I was walking up to my car, I saw some of my ties thrown about in the snow. And I was like, "Oh no." And then, I looked at my car and the back window had been smashed and they stole literally everything I owned. I had covered my stuff with a blanket thinking that, that would do the trick, that people were dumb enough to be like, "Oh, that blanket must not be hiding anything."

So, they stole all my stuff. I actually had a bag of important documents. And it had my passport, diploma, everything in there. I still don't have a diploma. And the only thing they left were a couple CDs, which is very insulting, like, "Not only will we steal from you, but your taste is not great. And so, we'll leave this Aladdin soundtrack right here and take everything else." And, that was my first move to start my adult life. And my friends at the time, they were so kind and they pulled together a bunch of money and gave me a couple hundred bucks to move to New York. And, shout-out to Jason Min and David Kim who coordinated that.

And, I moved to New York and I was really depressed and really poor for a very long time. I just found roommates via Craigslist, which is not a great way to find roommates. And, I moved around so much in New York, because I couldn't afford any place for very long. And, I remember I lived in Greenpoint, this is before it was cool and I just never or left my room. I watched the OC nonstop. That's all I remember. That's actually when I started blogging, this was early blogger days. So, it must be 2003 or 4. And I blog a lot about the OC. That's all I blogged about.

Duane Fernandez: Please tell me the records of this exist still.

Lee Sung Jin: I actually deleted the blog, but it got really popular. It was called Silly Pipe Dreams. And actually, it was the one thing I enjoyed doing. And so, I did that a lot and I just created this weird following because I would post about music that was on television before anyone was really doing that. And, Josh Schwartz actually found my blog and I started having some communication with him via that. And, yeah, it got pretty big. But I was doing and just trying to find a job. And then a friend of mine got me in for an interview at the NBC Page Program, at 30 Rockefeller, it's literally Kenneth the Page with the blue blazer and stuff. You're making $10 an hour giving studio tours and stuff.

And so, I got in. And that was great, it was a lot of fun. Met some really good friends there. And, I got a job at The Today Show, which I hated because my hours were 1:00 PM to 4:00 AM, which is the opposite of humans. My depression got worse. And, I had met a friend through the program, this guy, Pat Walsh, and both of us were interested in writing and we decided to try writing together. We don't write together anymore, but we started our careers together and we wrote this pilot about The Page Program. And, it somehow got into the right hands. And, we were fielding offers from agents and we flew out to LA to meet with all the different agents and that started things, I guess. Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: How long were you a page?

Lee Sung Jin: I wasn't a page for the full year. It's a year program. I think I was maybe six months or so.

Duane Fernandez: So, creative writing wise, the OC hooks you into telling a story. Is that the first time that you're actually putting yourself out there in creative writing? Had you done stuff prior?

Lee Sung Jin: No. Yeah, blogging was my first... I had a Zenga back then, pre-blogger. It was the worst Zenga imaginable. It was just me trying to break into parties I found in New York. I would research what premieres were happening. And then, get dressed up in a suit, and go by myself, and then somehow sneak into these parties and just be there alone. And I would sit by where the orders were coming out and that would be my dinner for the day. And then, I would try to network or something. And yeah, those were dark times. But, my Zenga was just updates about those nights. And, thank God it's no longer available, but blogging was my first... And, I wouldn't call my blogging creative writing at all, it was just fanboy-ing more so. But yeah, my first time really writing anything creative... I mean, I wrote stuff for school and growing up, but the first time was with Pat, just watching a lot of television, and reading a lot of books, and that became my new obsession, since I like to stay in. And so, I just spent hours watching stuff, trying to just become obsessed with it and put in my 10,000 hours. And, yeah. And, I feel like, as long as you're passionate and obsessive about something, you can pick it up pretty quick, anything I think.

Duane Fernandez: Well, the formula's out there, right? You can watch a great show, you can break it down, you can start understanding acts, and you can start really creating a beat sheet.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: And seeing like, "Oh, there's..." I won't say, "A formula here." "But there's something here that works. And maybe I can use my own creativity to come up with my own thing that works, that maybe I can innovate."

Lee Sung Jin: I think that's exactly right. And, I think for myself, it's easy, and for a lot of people it's easier to just get stuck in that first phase, which is, mimicking others. And I think, I mean, in general in being a human that's what we're doing most of the time. You're born into this world, and you as a child are mimicking behaviors, and tastes, and things, and learning how to be. And, I think with writing, it's the same thing, where at first, you're looking at other things that were supposedly good and trying to break it down and copy that. Not copy and paste that, but just absorb that. And, I think for a majority of writers and definitely for myself, you get stuck and think, that's what writing is. But like you said, there's this next phase that hopefully one can get to, where you learn that, that exists, and then realize, "Oh, that's just what other people do. Doesn't mean I have to do that. How do I want to approach this? What are the rules I want to make?"

And then, you learn to define your own type of storytelling and your own voice. And, I think that comes hand in hand with also, you as a human, learning to filter out the stuff that you've absorbed from other people and trying to figure out who you really are, and who your true self is, which I had to do in order to get to... I feel like my career has two phases. And, that first phase, even though I did have success with it, it was me mimicking others, and just trying to fit in, and do stuff that I thought people would like. And I found that, me as a human, I was doing that as well.

You come to LA and you're just trying to fit in with the crowd, I guess, or at least I was. And, I would go to general meetings and people would be with executives and they'd be like, "Oh, what's your favorite comedy of all time?" And I would say, "Caddyshack," because that's what everyone said. But I don't like Caddyshack. And I would just say that, because I thought that's what you're supposed to say. And so, the first phase of my career, I definitely think I was unhappy because I was not being true to myself in my writing, nor as a human being in just life. And, it took a big breakdown/breakthrough in order for me to realize, I don't have to do that. And, I can start trying to get to know who I really am. And then, my writing, I think, has slowly started to reflect that more and it's taken me a different direction, I think.

Duane Fernandez: That's awesome.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: That's really beautiful. And I think that there's an evolution there. And I think that what you discover to your point is, you're trying to understand how... I mean, I think by the very nature of the studios and the networks imposed the will of mimicking, and they want that, they want the next... By them saying, "We want the next Seinfeld." They're looking for material that represents something that was successful in the past.

Lee Sung Jin: Yes.

Duane Fernandez: And so, with that, as you're coming here as a young creative person, you're like, "Okay, that's what they want. So, I'm going to go and look and start mimicking." To your point, one, it's human nature. Two it's then, this system is actually telling you that's what they want. And then, so an innovative idea is a risky idea. So, if this idea doesn't comp against something, then it's super risky, and you really have to find someone that can really be a champion of that and sell it through. But, I think your path, what it has shown is, you can be very successful by fitting in within the system, being very good at that, finding your voice along the way, and then discovering how do I make my voice and how do I take my story, my truth, my vulnerabilities, and apply them in a way that I... Now that you know how the system works.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah, for sure. Because ultimately, I think, people, whether they know it or not are probably seeking authenticity and truth. And, it's not even just the studio systems that are enforcing this, it's just society in general. The status quo, just so much of our lives are people telling you, "Oh, be normal." Or, "This is the way." Or, there's a very hive mind nature to us. And so, you're constantly feeling like you have to contort yourself to fit in this predetermined shape as a just being. And I think that manifests in the studio system, but also just with people. And, I think, looking back, life has just been a long journey of filtering out people who are trying to fit you into this thing and finding people that allow you to not only just be, but be the purest form of yourself.

And, yeah. So, it is tough. It's just a constant battle, for me anyway, to give me the space to do that. And that's, I think, why I don't really like go out that much. I'm a hermit. And, I used to go out a lot, but now, I think it's tough. Because when you go out and you surround yourself with... When you put yourself into certain environments, you can't help but absorb that energy. And then, you take that back with you. And so, I try to shield myself from that a little bit.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. So I think that you're... To a comment you said earlier, we're learning these things from society that are... There's something wrong with being a loner, there's something wrong with being a hermit. I'm not saying that those are the same things, but we have all these preconceived notions through society that, "No, no, you've got to be outgoing. We love charming people. We want people who can hold a room and hold court. And those are valuable people to us as a society." And we're starting to realize like, "Actually the people who are introverts or very quiet are actually innovating society through technology, through stories, and it's because they want to be alone and they just want to work on their craft. And, please let me do that."

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. I mean, I think it's very valuable, because that's the only way you can really give yourself the space to get to know yourself. And I think that's the troubling thing about the times that we're in with social media, and Instagram, and Twitter, and stuff. It's designed for very outgoing external facing personalities. And, I find that there's a trend in terms of writing and just in the industry that they reward more people who are very outgoing, thus have more followers. But, traditionally a lot of writers are very not good at that. And, a lot of personalities don't enjoy that. And, it's tough to maintain that when the system, especially online that we've created, doesn't really give shine to that personality. But yeah, I think it's really important to give yourself space of that. Because, that's the only way you can really hear your own voice, because it's pretty loud otherwise.

Duane Fernandez: Well, yeah. And on top of that, when you're actually going out and doing all these events, you're going to your agent saying, "You need to go to network at this event when you're early in career. We want you to go take these meetings." And you're like, "I have no time to actually write. When do I write? When do I actually get to sit down and be quiet with my thoughts and come up with ideas if I'm constantly running around?"

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean writing, it's 90% just doing nothing. It's hard enough to write without stuff going on, because I'll spend a week at home and six out of the seven days is just mostly me moving from spot to spot, like, "Oh, I'll sit here for a little bit. Hmm, that's not working." And, I get nothing done, but it's just me wandering around the house. But that does set the stage to then on the seventh day, hopefully you channel something and something comes out. But, it's a very fragile process for me. I know writers who can pump stuff out. I certainly can't. But yeah, for me it's a very fragile process where six days of solitude and I'm hoping that something will spark. And then, something will interrupt me. And then, I have to start over, and then do another six days of just sitting around. So yeah, it's hard to write and also be social for me. But, everyone's different. And, I know there's plenty of people who can do too. I'm envious because I don't know how.

Duane Fernandez: Well, yeah, there's different phases. I think that while you're moving around, there's all these things going on in your brain, they're actually trying to figure out all the little steps, connect all the dots, figure out the structure, figure out a character. "What's this character... Where what..." And, even though you're not writing, this stuff's happening in your brain. And, I think that's where the magic happens, right? If you were to have connected to a biometrics, you'd see all this little magical light happening in your brain, even though you're just moving around from your spot.

Lee Sung Jin: Oh yeah, totally. I mean, most of the stuff I'm working on now, I've been sitting with it for years. Yeah. Most of the subconscious work, it's done over a really long period of time, just daily, just interacting with your environment and thinking about stuff, it's very little actual writing.

Duane Fernandez: When you're able to create a home, when you get to a certain point where you can actually create an environment that actually elevates your subconscious elevate... You have beautiful things around you that inspire you, you have quiet, you're able to create this world. It's almost a garden, you've created this soil that's rich, and as you plant seeds, they grow faster. And you're like, "Well, I've spent all this time. I've worked towards creating this home. Why would I want to leave it?" Are you a early riser or a night owl?

Lee Sung Jin: I'm definitely a night owl. Although lately, I've been waking up earlier. But, yeah, I find that weirdly the 3 to 4:00 AM time is probably when the best writing comes out, unfortunately.

Duane Fernandez: And, do you know through your creative process now that, "I'm going to need these nights where I'm up to four morning trying to break through here?" Or is it something that is common in your pattern now, that just some nights you're just throughout the week, "Yeah. I'll be up until 4 or 5."

Lee Sung Jin: I definitely am trying not to do that, just because I'm getting older and I can't. But, it just shakes out that way. I mean, I've been trying really hard to just have more of a regimented schedule of writing. But yeah, it's tough, because I just think that, that for me is the magic hour, because most of the world is asleep. So it's very quiet. And, there's just less clutter to have to get through to tap into the source. And so, I just find it easier, stuff flows better at that hour, even though I'm very tired. And maybe it is because I'm tired, because then you're not overthinking things. And, you can just be in the flow. But yeah, there's definitely a drastic difference between how much gets out between three and four, and all the other hours.

Duane Fernandez: Do you collect anything?

Lee Sung Jin: I do. I collect finals, a lot of first pressing, and I also collect a lot of old books. There's this bookstore in Santa Monica, Angel Bookstore, and the owner is awesome. He's a really cool guy. And, he has a lot of stuff. I also go to Bart's Books in Ohio a lot, they have a lot of cool stuff. But yeah, I just love collecting old things. I don't know, there's something about the history of it that feels nice.

Duane Fernandez: Do you think when you see a book, obviously there's a handful of bucket list books that must be in the collection, but when you're at these bookstores, is it the visual element that will pop out or sometimes it's a story you might... What are you drawn to?

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah, I mean, there's definitely the standard ones. I had a really early To Kill a Mockingbird, I think, a first pressing. And, the first paperback of Catcher and the Rye, and things like that. But then, I really like 60s culture, and especially like a lot of metaphysical stuff and psychedelic stuff. And so, I have a first addition of the psychedelic Tibetan Book of the Dead that Timothy Leery and a bunch of other people, I think, from Harvard wrote, that's really cool. I have a lot of Huxley. I have a first pressing of Ram Dass, Be Here Now, things like that, just stuff that... I don't know. I feel like that I definitely relate to that time. I think on a probably spiritual level. And so, I try to collect stuff around that. But yeah, it's fun. And, there's something about the texture of it in your hands, that's really cool.

Duane Fernandez: Well, in this day and age of everything being digital, it's so nice to have something that you can hold, and touch, and feel, because even while you're working, I don't know, do you work on a typewriter?

Lee Sung Jin: No.

Duane Fernandez: So, yeah, you're working on a laptop where you're creating something that's so beautiful and important, but it's in a digital form. So, going out and actually getting something that you can hold and help inspire you. There's something beautiful about that.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. I definitely have a hard time reading lately, more and more. So, it forces me to retain that skill somewhat. It's very hard to read these days, that's not on a screen. My brain can't process words on paper anymore. So, it definitely forces that muscle to work a little bit. But yeah, I don't think I've finished a actual... I just collect them, but I read them on my phone or iPad.

Duane Fernandez: I try to go to Barnes & Noble once a month, and I'm picking up books and I'm like, "Oh, David said there are short stories on my nightstand, blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "There's eight that I haven't even cracked open yet."

Lee Sung Jin: Oh yeah, sure. They're much more decorative than anything now.

Duane Fernandez: There's intentions, I do want to read them. Random question, what do you think are robots?

Lee Sung Jin: I think they can be cool. I think it's exciting. But, you mean robots like AI, or robots like robotics?

Duane Fernandez: Any of them.

Lee Sung Jin: I think it's like any tool, where it can be great or bad, like fire. Today, there's these really bad fires out in Granada Hills, and that's bad. But, fire's also great sometimes. And I think AI and robots will be very similar and it depends on the user.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: I had this conversation with... Are you familiar with GiantRobot, the art store do in Sawtelle?

Lee Sung Jin: That's great.

Duane Fernandez: Talking to Eric Nakamura, and asked him this question 12 years ago and he just said something I never thought about. And he was talking about in Japan, he's like, "If you culturally look at American robots, and Japanese robots, and story, Japanese robots or robots that came out of that part of Asia are operated by human beings. Robots in America in sci-fi are AI robots. They have their own personality." And, I just chew on this for all these years to just think about like, "How does that represent us as a culture? What does that mean?" And it's a really interesting point that he had.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. That is weird, but not surprising.

Duane: What's the craziest thing you've ever done?

Lee Sung Jin: I guess, I don't know. What do you mean by crazy?

Duane Fernandez: Looking back on it, I don't think something you regret. It's just something that like, "Man, I can't believe it." It could have been you reaching out to somebody in your career to pursue it. And you're like, "I have no reason I should be doing this." Or, you did a trip that was like, "Oh, that was insane. I shouldn't have done that."

Lee Sung Jin: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Duane Fernandez: Or, when you're in high school, or something even in college, maybe moving to New York was the craziest thing you've ever done.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. I feel like every decision or action is pretty crazy. Life in general is weird. How it all adds up to this present moment. But, I don't know. I'd say, yeah, definitely moving to New York was a big step. And, I'm trying to think what else. I mean, I definitely in those early years had no shame of reaching out to people to show my work. And, I definitely wrote a lot of emails to a lot of important people that I don't think I would do now. It's actually embarrassing thinking back on it. I would tell old me to just dial it down a little. But yeah, I can't believe I did that with really no awareness or shame, but sometimes it worked and sometimes I'm sure it really didn't work, but yeah, I don't know where that came from.

Duane Fernandez: Well, it's interesting though, because there's something about having the ability to put yourself out there and also be okay with... Maybe you weren't okay with rejection at that time, if someone ignored you or whatever it was, but it maybe built up your confidence in a weird way.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. I don't know. I just knew this is what I was supposed to be doing. And, I don't know. It was weird. With anything else, I wouldn't have done that. For music, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't reach out to a bunch of people to listen to my music. But for some reason with writing... And I think it helped having a writing partner, because then you're doing that for two people. So it feels less weird. But yeah, I don't know. I had this innate sense that it was going to work out, and I just needed to keep pressing. And, I think you hear that a lot with people who are happy with what they're... Or feel like they're doing what they're supposed to be doing, in terms of work, that they always knew deep down that, that's where they would end up. And, I think subconsciously something about it just kept me pushing in a way that I wouldn't for anything else.

Duane Fernandez: Do you remember the moment that you were like, "Oh, this is it. I get it now. And, I want to do this forever. And, I can do it forever?"

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah, I think it was those early days, when I was writing that first pilot with my then writing partner. I just found that I could do that and think about that for long periods of time. I could stay up really late only thinking about that. And, I was like, "Oh, there's not a lot of things you can do that with." And so, there's a certain fulfillment when you can focus on one thing for a really long time. And so, I feel like that's probably when something kicked into high gear, I guess.

Duane Fernandez: That's awesome.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: When you started writing the pilot, had you read a screenplay prior to that? Did you understand even just the format of how screenplay worked?

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah, I read a lot of blogs. I know you had mentioned John August earlier when we were talking. And, I read his blog a lot. This guy, Ken Levine, I think his name is, that I read his blog all the time. And, ordered some books. Although back then, I don't think I ordered, I went in-person and bought books. And, yeah, I just became a real student. I think, but now I feel like I could probably do that obsessive focus on... I find that I like doing that with other things now too, like design, or architecture, or things like that. I think screenwriting was the first thing that gave me that fulfillment, but I could easily see myself if everything went to shit, that I would find something new to obsess over.

Duane Fernandez: Well, I think that when you understand story, you can apply that to an experience in a museum. You can apply that to a building. You can understand what an audience is trying to... And, I've had conversations with architects, their favorite thing to do when a building's done is go sit in the lobby and watch people experience... Walk through a building and see how they're experiencing the space. And, "Are they looking at things I want them to look at? And, how are they moving the water through this space?" And I think that there's a story. And everyone wants to tell that story, and I think whether you're an architect and you break that, then you understand how to tell that story, you can apply that in other places as well.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think writing helps you deconstruct things. And, there's really only two things that anything does, which is rise or fall. And, once you know that, then you can apply that to really anything. There's actually this machine learning algorithm that, I forget at what university they fed, thousands of pieces of classic literature into this machine learning and algorithm. And, it found that there's only six ways humans tell story. And, it's all different versions of rise or fall. It's like, rise fall, or fall rise, rise fall rise, or fall rise fall. And, yeah. And that makes sense. That's what it's like really. And, I think music is the same way. There's a status quo chord, and then you either rise or fall from it, and then you resolve. And, literally everything falls into that.

And, Kurt Vonnegut actually knew that before. And, there's this YouTube lecture of him graphing rises and falls. And, he famously, I think, coined the term man and the whole arc, which is, I think, a fall rise. Yeah. And I think, that has helped me a lot just in approaching anything, whether it's music or any narrative to know that, we're ultimately only... It's very generic and broad, but that really is what it boils down to.

Duane Fernandez: So, it's a great way to segue into this question. You get an assignment, you're coming up with an idea, you get a project, you've been working on a treatment, you've been working on a synopsis and you get it. You start moving forward with a project. You've got three weeks, you've got a deadline, or however long, it's six weeks, eight weeks, whatever it is. How do you go from A to B? How do you approach it from your... You seem like you're very methodical and also you allow yourself to be creative, but now with your experience, how do you look at that period of time, and how do you get through it?

Lee Sung Jin: Weirdly, I think each thing has a life of its own. And, you just try to go with the flow of it. And, you just approach it differently. Some days I'll try a different way in, or rethink something. Other days I'll watch a bunch of stuff and see if it inspires something. But yeah, every project, it's a very different process.

Duane Fernandez: So, yeah. So, sometimes do you sit there and like, "Okay, I'm going to outline this season." Nope, I'm just going to work on the first 10 pages." Or, "I'm going to build out a character." Or, "I'm going to write a Bible."

Lee Sung Jin: Oh, I see.

Duane Fernandez: Do you do any of those things now?

Lee Sung Jin: Well, a lot of the steps are intrinsically there because of the selling process, for my pilots, at first you get a kernel, some inspiration, and then you flesh it out, and then hopefully find producers that want to do that with you. And then, you go pitch it. And, when I pitch my pitches are very, very intense. I do this crazy PowerPoint presentation. And, usually a Photoshop and storyboard each scene that I'm talking about. And it takes forever for me to finish these presentations. And so, when you're doing that, you've done a lot of the groundwork and you're setting up the general arcs, and different seasons, and characters, and things.

So, a lot of that's done when you're pitching it. And then, hopefully someone buys it. And then, when they buy it, they have their input. And so then, you have to go back, and revisit, and tweak. And then, naturally once you sell it, there's steps. And so, first, you turn in an outline. And then, you get notes on the outline, and then you go to your first draft, and then you get notes on that. So, that gives it some structure. But each of those steps has its life of their own, I think.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. I can tell you see that. That's neat. I love the fact that you're a writer, but you also spend all this time actually creating the visual elements to sell through your idea.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. Because, I think I'm more of a visual person. I'm actually not a very good writer. It's very, very hard for me. And so, a lot of times when I get stuck... What's helped lot actually. And, this is a unsolicited promotion, is the iPad Pro with the pencil. I didn't think I'd like it so much, but with the pencil I can go and draw each scene that is in my head. And so, I will draw each and storyboard certain areas, like a cold open. And I'll just close my eyes and try to imagine it and then draw it. And then, that actually helps give it some form. And then, I can take that and then create some beats out of it. And then, hopefully that turns into something. But yeah, the visual element for me is very, very important, because I think my head goes there first.

Duane Fernandez: That's amazing. The fact that you said that you don't think you're a strong writer, do you beat yourself up at times about it, or do you like, "Well this isn't my strength, so I'll power through."

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. I think, a lot of writers go through similar phases of writing, where at first you're like, "I can do this. This will be good. I'm excited to start this project." And you're like, "I'm pretty great." And then you start, and you're like, "Oh no. I'm not good at all." And then, you finish something, and then you're like, "I'm the best writer of all time. And, this is going to change the world." And then, you reread it, and then you're like, "Oh boy, that's really bad." And so, you go through these phases of thinking you're the best, but then also the worst. And, that's just life.

Duane Fernandez: That's absolutely life. Through your creative process, through this stuff that we've been talking about, your creative phase, are you ever bringing in people for insight?

Lee Sung Jin: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, all the time. I mean, I started doing that probably when my career phase changed. My first phase was that phase I was talking about and that was with a writing partner. And then, phase two was solo, and as I rediscovered myself. I think in that second phase, I started to bring in more people that I trust and I don't feel judged by to, pretty early on, constantly be getting feedback. Because I think, no idea is precious. We're all the same thing really, expressing itself. And so, it's just nice to just constantly be getting feedback and making it better, I think.

Duane Fernandez: Earlier in your career, people were a little more precious about their ideas.

Lee Sung Jin: Right.

Duane Fernandez: Because they think they have this thing that no one else has thought of.

Lee Sung Jin: Yes.

Duane Fernandez: They don't want anyone giving feedback on it.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. And, I definitely used to be that way. And it makes me cringe. And I could still be that way sometimes, but I think now I'm more aware, yeah, again, that we're pretty much the same. We're just like the universe experiencing itself. So, whether I come up with something or someone else does, it really doesn't matter. All these narratives I think are trying to be a mirror of helping us evolve. And so, yeah. And now, I'm like more like, "Oh, just whatever helps." It's more about being a vessel for, I guess, authentic moments, than being possessive about any idea. Which is why it's so funny to me when a lot of times... This happens a lot culturally, where similar ideas tend to pop up at the same time.

I think it's called multiple discovery theory or something like that. I don't know. But, it's how the telephone was invented by not only Alexander Graham Bell, but this other woman on the same day, thousands of miles apart. And I think, it's penicillin or some antibiotic too, that one person's given credit for, but it actually popped up in several places in history around the same time. And I think idea-wise, creatively, that happens a lot too, because obviously, right now there's a lot of alternate reality stuff. And, sometimes people are like, "Oh, that person ripped off that person." But really what's going on, I think, is that, we're all people that are experiencing very similar environmental factors. And so, when you have those inputs that naturally the output, the Venn diagram, can be fairly large. And so, that's why you have these weird instances of very, very similar things popping up. And so, you can't be precious about it, because we're all things just responding to a stimuli, I think.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that what's interesting is that, if you go into a room and you're really precious about this one idea, you're almost saying, "This is the one I got. I don't have many more. So, you better like this one." And I had a mentor early on say, "If they don't like one idea." I'm like, "Well, I got a 100,000 more I can come up with." But to your point, you also realize that there's elements of a story that you have to fight for and that you're like, "No, this is really important to the story." As a writer you know that there are certain things that are, are important for the arc. But you have to receive feedback and navigate that. And then, it's almost a little bit of politics through business. You have to know how to navigate those waters carefully.

Lee Sung Jin: Oh yeah, for sure. And, there's a learning curve to that, for sure.

Duane Fernandez: Of all the characters you've had the privilege to write for, who's one of your favorite?

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. I'm not sure.

Duane Fernandez: That's fine. That's fine.

Lee Sung Jin: Oh, I don't know. Yeah, I don't think they've announced the season of the show that I had written for recently, but that was really fun to write for.

Duane Fernandez: In the future, we'll come back to that one.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: As it relates to characters that you've created, do you think you want to talk about, do you have one for that or is that also in the future?

Lee Sung Jin: I try to only write stuff now that I actually care a lot about. I think before, again, first phase, I was selling a lot of stuff just to sell it and to please others, and to try to figure out what the other wanted. And so, now I try to write stuff that I like, and that I find interesting. And so, each project, now for the most part, each character's very fulfilling in different ways. Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: That's amazing. What do you love about your job?

Lee Sung Jin: I love just that it allows ways to express things in my head. It's a nice outlet. And, I do like the collaborative aspect of it. It's a nice balance, for me, of being able to be a hermit, and be in my cave, and just create. But then at times, allow myself to collaborate with people I really love and enjoy, especially lately. I think, the more you filter out stuff that isn't you and your truer to yourself, you naturally draw people that are in line with you. And that's been happening a lot more in recent years. And so, you get to meet a lot of really cool people that you vibe with. And so, that's been really great. Yeah, I've just been really fortunate getting to collaborate with some amazing humans.

Duane Fernandez: That's cool. The law of attraction. It starts coming together.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah, it's very strange.

Duane Fernandez: Do you think that there's something that makes a script great? As you're reading, even something that you're not, what do you think makes?

Lee Sung Jin: I think, just for me, I spark to things that feel very true and real, I guess. I think, anything that feels contrived is the stuff that hurts it. And so, yeah, I think the stuff that makes the script good is just whatever feels authentic.

Duane Fernandez: What personality trait do you think is most important to a writer?

Lee Sung Jin: I don't know that there is one. Yeah. I don't think there is one. I think, you just got to be you. And then... Yeah. I know I keep saying the same thing, but I think it's-

Duane Fernandez: But that's a hard thing to do for a lot of people, especially when you're young, to all the things that we've talked about with what society makes us think we are. You actually have to remove all that stuff and then find you yeah and be okay with you. So, that's actually quite complex.

Lee Sung Jin: ... It is. Yeah. It's much harder to do. Yeah. Yeah, it's less of a trait and probably more of the journey that I think is important, but not only for writing, but for anything. Yeah, just trying to strip away stuff and figure out who it is that you are and what you're trying to say. And, the more you can do that, I think, the better your writing will be.

Duane Fernandez: You said something earlier that I keep thinking about. And I was like, "Well, I'll follow-up with that." And I'm like, "No. Actually, no, we've gone on." But I have to go back to it, it's a dog and the bone. You talked about your pitches, right? So, you said that you have this very intricate pitch process. Do you enjoy the pitch phase?

Lee Sung Jin: I do.

Duane Fernandez: Do you love pitching?

Lee Sung Jin: I weirdly love it. I would rather do that than write, honestly, if I could just create PowerPoints for a living, I'd be very happy.

Duane Fernandez: Really?

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah, I think so.

Duane Fernandez: So, you roll up to a studio, you've got this big presentation, there's a lot of partners, and you're like, "Give me the ball. I want this."

Lee Sung Jin: Oh, well, you go over it with your partners beforehand. So, they're very aware of what I'm about to unleash on these buyers. And yeah, I bring my laptop and I have usually a 35 to 40 slide presentation with very interactive, multimedia music and trigger points and things like that. And, yeah, it's funny now, I think, the word's gotten out. And so, I think I've definitely gotten some people like, "I have heard about your PowerPoints. We're excited." And so, I got to tone it down a little, but.

Duane Fernandez: Well, weirdly, it's the most important part of the project, is nailing that, right? And that's why I think to some people it's nerve wracking, it's so terrifying, they're shaking before they go on those meetings, they hate presenting, they might be the most outgoing people of all time, but it's tough. It's a tough audience sometimes.

Lee Sung Jin: Oh yeah. It can be the worst, but now I don't get nervous at all. And, it's presentational, and it almost just feels like you're performing or it's performance art or something. And so, I just block out the people that are there and I just focus on... And, my pitches are so meticulously planned that most of the time my brain is just remembering. And so, I don't have time to really think about anything else.

Duane Fernandez: That's smart.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah, and you're giving them an experience versus a presentation.

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah. Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: And they're saying something. And, actually, when I think about it, I have a feeling with the Smith Sony, at one point, there's going to be exhibit of Sony's presentations. What advice do you have for somebody who's coming out of college? Comes out of any college in America or around the world and they want to be a writer in Los Angeles. What's the single advice you would give them?

Lee Sung Jin: I'd say, apart from what we've already talked about in terms of giving yourself the space to get to know yourself, I'd say, just put in the hours. I think a lot of people get caught up in the other stuff that they can't control, like, "Who do I network with?" Or how do I get an agent?" And, so much of that is luck anyway, that really the only thing you can can control is your content. And, I just put in the hours, rewrite, try new things, constantly be doing only that, because I think if your stuff is good, it'll naturally open doors for you. And, so many times, and even for myself, when I look back at my early stuff, I would never send it out now, but at the time, I was like, "Oh, this is awesome." But it wasn't, and I could have stood to probably improve a lot of that.

And, the more you can make your stuff great, just the wider the doors will open. And, I think, too many times people blame it on other factors like, "Oh, I don't know the right people." Or, "I'm just unlucky." Or, "I need to be a writer's assistant on this show or that show." And, yeah, those help and those are factors, but if you suddenly wrote the Eternal Sunshine, people will pay attention. It's hard to ignore greatness. And so, just put in the hours to try to be great.

Duane Fernandez: I love that. As far as your current projects, we've talked a little bit about them. And then, out there in the universe, Tuca & Bertie's out there.

Lee Sung Jin: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Duane Fernandez: And, how was it like working on that?

Lee Sung Jin: Oh, I love that show and I loved working for it. Lisa Hanawalt is the absolute best. She says it was her first time show-running but certainly it didn't feel that way. She knew exactly what she was doing, she had a very clear vision, super collaborative, no ego, creates a really safe environment to create. I loved working for her.

I find that in general, Raphael Bob-Waksberg's shows all have environments that are very, very fondly talked about. I have a lot of friends on BoJack and they just love writing for that show. I think he just has a really good knack for good humans. He has a good radar for that. And, I think that's very, very important for a writing environment. Maybe even more important than finding the best talent, necessarily. It's talent so it's subjective anyway, that finding really good humans is super key. And they do a great job of that. And, all the writers on Tuca & Bertie were incredible people. It was super fun, because we were starting from scratch. I mean, not scratch, Lisa had so many ideas already. But it was a new show, which is always fun to think about. And, Tiffany and Ali are such great voices. And Steven Yeun, John Early. I mean just had a banger cast. And so, yeah, it was super fun.

Duane Fernandez: As it relates to what you wanted the audience to feel, at the end of season one, what did you want them to feel?

Lee Sung Jin: I mean, I think we wanted them to feel a really strong friendship between these two bird women. A friendship that felt very relatable and true, even though they're birds. And, I think we accomplished that.

Duane Fernandez: You nailed it. Absolutely.

Lee Sung Jin: Thank you.

Duane Fernandez: We only have three more questions left.

Lee Sung Jin: Oh, yeah sure. And, I don't mind, we don't have to stick to the questions either.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah, no. There's a couple I really am curious about. How do you define success?

Lee Sung Jin: I don't know. I mean, I guess probably with other words, there's financial success, which is easy to measure, because you just look at your bank account. And I guess there's personal success, which is fulfilled and content you are overall. And then, I guess, there's critical success, which is, how well-received you are by your peers. And they're all different. And I don't judge one over the other, I guess. But they're all different. And yeah. Yeah. It's tough to gauge, success is a weird thing.

Duane Fernandez: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you believe in magic?

Lee Sung Jin: I guess it depends on... Sorry, I have a hard time defining things.

Duane Fernandez: Of course.

Lee Sung Jin: But, yeah, I guess it depends on what you mean by magic.

Duane Fernandez: Maybe you run into somebody and it was meant to be, do you believe in that the universe provided this interaction?

Lee Sung Jin: Yeah, I definitely go back and forth on that. I think, magic can be as real as your perception wants it to be. And, if you really believe in magic, then of course it is real. But if you don't, then it's not. And so, I think it depends on your own perception. For me, I definitely waffle back and forth with all that synchronicity stuff. But, there's definitely things that have happened that are so strange and so weird that it's very hard to deny at this point. Yeah. But I go through phases where I'm a super skeptic, and then stuff happens, and I'm like, "That's very hard to ignore." But yeah. Yeah. I'd probably lean more into the believer side right now.

Duane Fernandez: Right.

Lee Sung Jin: Presently.

Duane Fernandez: How do you think we can make the world a better place?

Lee Sung Jin: One, by being true to yourself and trying to hear your own voice, the highest version of your own voice. And then, I think there's this Gandhi quote that's probably super cheesy about the only way to find yourself is by serving others. And I think that's probably true and probably a way to make the world a better place, is just to serve others and to not... I mean, I almost wore this other tie dye shirt that says, "Your ego is not your amigo." It's by Online Ceramics. And, shout-out Online Ceramics, they're the best.

But, I do think that the world would be better if we spent more time trying to quiet our ego. And I don't mean pride, I mean your sense of self, because our sense of self is an illusion. There's this part of our brain and the prefrontal cortex, I think, that houses this idea of a self. And I think, so much of our culture is trying to boost that. But when you meditate, or run, or listen to music, or pray, or do psychedelics, or whatever, the actual brain scans show that part of your brain with the self oxygen and blood flow dies down in that area and it quiets down. But then the rest of your brain that never talks to each other, the whole thing lights up.

Duane Fernandez: Wow.

Lee Sung Jin: And so, I think the more we can do that, whatever that is, and whatever activities help you get there, then that will definitely make the world a better place, because you're not thinking about yourself so much. I like to think about it like octopods, like an octopus has eight arms and each arm actually has its own mini brain. And so, that's why when you cut off an octopus arm by food, you can still see it go run off and get the food, because that arm thinks, "Oh, that's my job. I'm an arm. I'm an autonomous arm and I'm going to go get the food. That's what I'm very good at." And then, suddenly it looks around and there's no body.

And, I think that's so interesting, because sometimes I'm like, "Oh, I wonder if we are those arms." We have our brains, but for us, our sense of self has gotten so strong that we feel individual and separate, that we're these individual arms and that all we need to do is do the best for me, this arm. But if we can quiet our brains, then we'll realize that we're all a part of this giant octopus. And, the more I think we can do that and feel in the flow of that, the better overall octopus we can be. You don't want to just be this stubborn arm.

Duane Fernandez: Thank you for taking the time to check out the Smith Society, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Lee Sung Jin. If you did enjoy it, please take a moment to subscribe, follow, whatever it is, whatever platform you're using to listen to this. And even better, leave a comment. I'd love to know what you think. Doing those really help get this story and these stories out to more people. So, I know it's a little bit of work, but it's extremely appreciated. You can check out Lee Sung Jin on Instagram at, Be Here Later, which I think is such a clever name, and is so Lee Sung Jin. And you can find us on Instagram as well at the Smith Society pod. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. You're awesome.